Talk:San Hieronymo Incident
Wow. Props for fleshing it out, but you've made it too long, I fear. Plus it's a little boring to read. I'll try trimming it down later on. --Fantomas 09:07, 5 June 2009 (UTC) :Thanks, I didn't really like the fact that the summary was just too shallow. I should have made it shorter, but I really don't know how to do a summary without leaving out details. :Also, err, I wasn't sure if Zero was supposed to be "the man who has the same codename as NULL", as immediately after that, Gene asks Ocelot if he realizes that he's betraying his employer (which we were to assume was "the man who has the same codename as NULL"), yet the ending credits didn't feature any betrayals (well, unless you consider "quitting" and saying you won't use me anymore as a betrayal). In fact, if Ocelot even betrayed anyone during that saga, it was the DCI. That, as well as everything short of the sending trajectory data was a CIA plot (as stated by Gene), it seemed as though the DCI seemed to be the one he was talking about. I mean, if you can clarify that "betrayal" line, I'll appreciate it. ::That's alright, I'd been meaning to work on a full summary for a while, but after getting a lot of the way through it my computer crashed, I lost the file (as I normally make these summaries in Notepad before copying them over) and I didn't have the drive to do it all over again. ::As for the whole "man with the same codename as Null" business, you're working on the assumption that the man with the Null codename was who Ocelot was betraying, which it wasn't. Ocelot did betray the DCI, which is who Gene was referring to when he mentioned the betraying, but thats a different character. The man with the Null codename is who Ocelot was conspiring with against the CIA, in order to get the other half of The Philosopher's Legacy so that they could set up The Patriots. That's basically what the whole of Portable Ops is about. Ocelot is definitly the hardest character to follow in the Metal Gear Saga, you have to remember he was a triple-agent! ::I may have messed up on a little bit here, but to summarize: the man with the same codename as Null is not Ocelot's employer, the CIA was. --Fantomas 23:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC) :::Well, thanks for the explaination. I was definitely confused there. Well, now I definitely can say that Zero was the man with the same codename as Null. Also, sorry to hear about your computer. :::BTW, when are you going to continue? ::::Whenever I get the chance. I'll probably do another chunk a little later. --Fantomas 10:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC) :::::So, umm, when's the next update? ::::::Whenever I have time. Probably during the week at some point. --Fantomas 23:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC) :::::::So, umm, when are you going to finish? I mean, it's now September 6th of 2009, much later than 20th of June, and certainly later than the week after the 20th of June. Trimming I'm too busy now to trim this down any further. Does someone else want to take on the mammoth task of making this shorter? --Fantomas 19:08, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :I'd do it myself, but as stated before, it's kinda hard for me to summarize without removing details (as I feel as though all details are important). Weedle McHairybug 01:11, December 5, 2009 (UTC) ss Can anyone explain what exactly "ss" meant? All I know is that that was the phrase that replaced "rationales." Weedle McHairybug 17:31, January 19, 2010 (UTC) :Just a mistake on my part thanks to the stupid new wikia editor, that scrolls all over the place when I try and type. By the way anyone know the specific forum in which to complain about it, cos it's really doing my head in now. Bluerock 17:35, January 19, 2010 (UTC) ::User:Richard1990 might be able to do something about it, ask him. --Fantomas 19:37, January 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::Ok, assuming you aren't going to fix it anytime soon, want to tell me what you were originally planning on changing Rationals to? or at least, what you were planning to do before the whole "ss" mess started so I can add it in myself? Weedle McHairybug 00:50, January 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Well, it originally said "rationals" and I was just gonna add the 'e' in there until wikia messed it up. Don't worry it's done now. --Bluerock 01:12, January 21, 2010 (UTC) Raikov mission You know, I was mulling it over, and I think that adding in the Raikov Mission into the article might not be a bad idea. I mean, we have a few facts that point to it being a necessary mission storywise. 1. The Raikov mission is quite literally the first mission to partake in for the Western Wilderness. 2. The Raikov mission, unlike most of the other character-unlocking Spy Missions, is actually treated like one of the in-story missions (As in, Roy Campbell actually states far more than just "Did you read the report? proceed as planned" or commenting on procuring supplies.). In fact, the only real difference between regular in-story missions and this one is that you must immediately partake in it as otherwise, the mission will automatically be a failure. 3. Thanks to Elisa and rescuing Snake, the resistance currently has two trucks. Evidentally, they'd have to use the other truck somehow, especially seeing how Elisa doesn't actually leave the party until the Plant, which, for evident reasons, she ended up being forced to betray the team by Gene, and spy missions after the Plant mission end up becoming scarce after that. The only real setback to this mission being canon is that Snake had the option to kill Raikov in Metal Gear Solid 3. However, as I have already pointed out on Raikov's talkpage, there is more evidence to suggest that he merely knocked out Raikov instead of actually killing him. Weedle McHairybug 13:29, January 22, 2010 (UTC) Sokolov Mission I was mulling it over, and I was thinking that, even if the Raikov mission wasn't essential to the plot, the Sokolov mission was essential, at least in the sense that it would make his appearance in the ending of Portable Ops and his descriptions a lot more sense. I mean, without the mission there would be a few holes. 1. Knowing how Gene deals with traitors, Sokolov would not have been able to get away with leaking intel to Snake and his resistance. The only two ways that Sokolov would end up being placed in are either imprisonment or death. Sokolov was also noticably absent from the time he unveiled his true identity to the call at the ending, so he also couldn't have joined at that point. 2. Some of the details, such as the fact that they talked about the booster during the ending as if they talked about it before, among other things, would not have made sense without the Sokolov mission, and the fans would also have begun to wonder why a NASA-made Saturn V like rocket booster would have been at a base that was supposed to be Soviet-owned. 3. Knowing all of this above, there is also the fact that Snake wouldn't have been able to contact Sokolov at that point (he wouldn't have known what happened to him after the incident with Gene at the Plant), so the only possible way this could occur was through the Sokolov mission. Knowing all this, I propose we add in the mission to the article, it at least has more to do with the plot than with Raikov's mission (where the only real hint that they had recruited Raikov in the plotline was the fact that they currently had two trucks under their possession which needed to be used anyways.). Weedle McHairybug 15:41, March 19, 2010 (UTC) :I don't want to make this article any longer than it has to be. We really need to get around to "trimming the fat" from this article. There's way too much fluff. Ultimatley, I don't feel the Sokolov mission should be included because it's optional. I think this article needs to be focused on the story and plot of Portable Ops, not any of the side/optional missions. --Fantomas 18:40, March 19, 2010 (UTC) Is this even canon? Peace Walker seems to completely ignore this game. I mean theres no mention to any of the events in it which seem pretty relevant seeing as The Boss plays an important role in Peace Walker and Gene was all about respecting her memory, you'd think Big Boss would sort of make some reference to Gene and his idea of Army's Heaven, afterall he's meant to have given Big Boss a load of resources. Theres also a few other points like Snake who apparently forgot his battle with Metal Gear RAXA and acts as if the only time he's ever heard of "Metal Gear" is when Granin mentioned it. Apart from Snake founding FoxHound between games, it seems like Kojima has forgotten about Portable Ops, so is the San Hieronymo takeover even canon anymore? :At this point, yes, it is still canon. --Fantomas 20:56, July 3, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, it's still canon as Kaz still mentioned San Hieronymo, not to mention the fact that the timeline still counts it as canon (If they truly wished for it to not be canon, why not actually NOT include it on the official timeline on the site? Heck, why even bother including the reference to San Hieronymo? I know if I were them, I definitely would not have allowed it into either of those things if I truly felt it was noncanon.). Besides, by that same logic, then MGS4 is automatically non-canon as well, seeing how they retconned EVA's birth of the Patriots, as well as Ocelot and Big Boss's account (EVA worded it in such a way that made it seem as though Big Boss left The Patriots because of his finding out about the birth of Solid and Liquid Snake, but some parts of MGS:PW made it seem as though he didn't even know Les Enfants Terribles happened. Plus, Snake didn't seem to harbor any bad feelings towards Zero despite MGS4 implying that he had actually had hate for Zero after that, and he didn't seem to even recognize Cipher, even though he partially founded it.). We might as well also "retcon" MGS2 out of existance due to MGS4 having very minute references to MGS2. See how the logic is flawed? Hence why we shouldn't dismiss it as non-canon just because there are barely any references to it. Otherwise, we would also have to "retcon" every single Metal Gear game barring MGS3 as being completely non-canon. Weedle McHairybug 21:18, July 3, 2010 (UTC) :::What are you talking about? Did it ever occur to you that Zero changed the name to Cipher AFTER Big Boss left? Also, Big Boss still showed anger at Zero. Especially after Kaz confessed his involvement with Zero. Also, nothing suggests that big boss didn't know about Les Enfants Terribles. He had no reason to tell Huey about the project. Hell, he even said in MGS4 that he never though of Snake as a son but he respected him as a soldier and man. That's probably why he said "nope" in response to Huey's question. By the way, stop comparing the games to the novel. It's not a very good counterpoint.-- 21:33, July 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::Calm down, guys. This isn't worth arguing about. --Fantomas 21:37, July 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::I am calm. I'm not arguing with him.-- 21:38, July 3, 2010 (UTC) :::::When Kaz asked if Snake had a history with them, he answered that he "can't say he had a history with them." Besides, I was trying to explain how claiming that Portable Ops was non-canon just because it was not mentioned is a very bad reason to claim it's non-canon, especially seeing how Kaz DID mention San Hieronymo, and the timeline on the official site does still mention Portable Ops as being part of the timeline. And when did I even mention the Novelization in my arguement? Sorry Fantomas, but I was trying to explain to that user why such an arguement would not be a good one (you know, claiming that MPO was non-canon just because it wasn't mentioned in Peace Walker. Look at Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2, Solid Snake: Those weren't even mentioned in MGS2, should we discount them as non canon, as well?)Weedle McHairybug 21:42, July 3, 2010 (UTC) :::Someone doesn't start a reply with "What are you talking about?" unless they're looking for an argument. I know what you two are like. --Fantomas 21:44, July 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::Wait... I don't like even looking for arguements, especially not insults. So what do you mean by that, Fantomas? Weedle McHairybug 21:48, July 3, 2010 (UTC) :::::I'm honestly not looking for an argument. Also, Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake are mentioned in Nastasha Romanenko and Gary McGolden's novels in MGS2. Raiden even asks Snake (while he's Iroqouis Pliskin) if he's heard of Outer Heaven in an optional codec conversation. -- 21:52, July 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Also Solidus references Outer Heaven. --Fantomas 21:53, July 3, 2010 (UTC) :::::::I know about Outer Heaven (although I heard that Snake denied knowledge of it despite already having been revealed to be him). However, I'm not sure if I saw any references to Metal Gear or Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake in ItDoSS:TUT outside of the conversation that Roy Campbell, Solid Snake, and Naomi Hunter had while Snake was coping with the torture and the reference to Gray Fox. Anyways, the point of my statement was that trying to cite their barely being referenced as being a reason why something's not canon Portable Ops to Peace Walker, for example is a very poor arguement to it not being canon. That was the point of my statement, not that I actually thought that they weren't canon. If anything, I was trying to support Fantomas and I think 70.127.203.117 in stating that Portable Ops was canon (70, you DO think that Portable Ops is still canon, right? I just want to make sure, that's all.). BTW, speaking of Optional codec conversations, 70.127.203.117, could you post any optional MGS2 conversations onto the MGS2 conversations article? I'll try to add in the one with Mei Ling. Weedle McHairybug 21:59, July 3, 2010 (UTC) I too am disappointed that there was barely any reference to Portable Ops. They can't even be bothered to talk about METAL GEAR (ICBMG) in the briefing tapes (so far as I know), but will gladly have Huey and Big Boss discuss the Shagohod. I'm still waiting to find out who this Pentagon "script writer" was, who planned Big Boss's actions during the San Hieronymo Incident. But I doubt Kojima can be bothered. 12:23, July 6, 2010 (UTC) :The Phone call at the end as well as Gene's phone call to Ocelot implies that it was Major Zero, to answer your question about who the script writer at the Pentagon was. Also, the ICBMG, despite the name, would not have fit Granin's definition at all, due to the fact that not only was it not bipedal, but it (or at least RAXA) can't actually walk (This is evidenced by the fact that RAXA, despite being enhanced beyond its normal behavior by Ursula, does not walk at all, and at best turns around.). Weedle McHairybug 12:28, July 6, 2010 (UTC) ::It was still explicitly named Metal Gear, and was in part inspired by Granin's designs, whether it was bipedal or not. America was almost nuked, and the ICBMG was stopped at the very last second at launch. You'd think that would be at least as important a topic as the Shagohod. I dunno, maybe Big Boss got that same amnesia disease as Miller's mom. :: :: Think about this...in 1972 Big Boss was wounded and in a coma...hence the "Les Enfant Terrible Project" beginning. Maybe the coma had caused Big Boss to have some memory loss. Maybe he couldnt remember much about the San Hieronymo incident. Maybe just the Jist of it. Or perhaps it's due to the fact the one of the main plot points of Peace Walker is of The Boss and Big Boss trying to find answers to the questions instilled in him during Operation Snake Eater. The San Hieronymo Incident definetly happened but due to Peace Walkers setup and plot ,refrenceing Snake Eater was more important to the plot. BigBoss1292 03:38, July 13, 2010 (UTC) The script that "he" and the Pentagon wrote for Snake I don't recall Zero ever being a part of the DOD at that point, only that he was the man with the same codename as Null, and was feeding Ocelot info during the incident. The "Pentagon script writer" that Cunningham mentions, was implied to be a Philosopher (or carrying out their orders), involved in the infighting amongst the group, and was attempting to tarnish the CIA's reputation by having Gene launch the nuke into the Soviet Union. This infighting was the reason that Zero and the others formed the Patriots in the first place. The conversation at the end with Ocelot, implied that they never intended for Gene to launch a nuke. This Pentagon guy sounds like a completely different person. Unless I'm missing something? I ask because I've never heard this theory before, and it isn't mentioned anywhere on this wiki as far as I know. --Bluerock 17:42, July 6, 2010 (UTC) :I suppose Zero could have been in cahoots with the DOD, passing on the info about the ICBMG to them, through his links in the CIA. But whereas Zero and the Pentagon both wanted Gene's rebellion to occur, and for Snake to throw a wrench in his plans, as per the script, the Pentagon intended for Metal Gear to actually be launched in the end, while Zero did not. Is that what was supposed to have been conveyed in the story? Damn, this is the "deviously cunning strategist" issue all over again, lol. --Bluerock 19:16, July 6, 2010 (UTC) ::The guy who "wrote the script" was either Zero or Ocelot. Cunningham pointed out how right he was about Big Boss. Ocelot idolized him and pointed out how good he was after he killed The Fear and The End. But, Ocelot also mentioned that everything was part of Zero's script. --Timerider 19:35, July 6, 2010 (UTC) :::The confusing thing is that the Pentagon also wrote this script, even though both parties had entirely different aims, it seems. --Bluerock 20:55, July 6, 2010 (UTC) ::::It's possible that Zero manipulated the DOD and used them in a similar manner to Gene (since technically, Gene did ultimately have different aims than Zero and Ocelot, since while they simply wanted to point the nukes at Virgina, USA, Gene intended to launch them.). Weedle McHairybug 00:40, July 7, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, it was confirmed that Zero and Gene did conspire together, though Gene broke from their original plan. So, I guess Zero did a similar thing to the DOD then. They both wanted Naked Snake to disrupt Gene's plans, but Zero, knowing Snake better, must have known that he would refuse Cunningham's offer of joining the DOD and be able to defeat Cunningham, whereas the DOD expected Snake to come over to their side, since he would hate the CIA for their involvement in the Boss's death. Perhaps, that was the idea. --Bluerock 05:53, July 7, 2010 (UTC)